Speaking of our community

[Dalila di Capri]

Here is an argument that I have made many times and have a variety of reactions.

Does this genre:

1. Eliminate violence toward women be replacing the urge for acting out the fantasy in real life
with satisfying films.

2. Cause more damage by giving people "ideas" that this would be a fun thing to do in real life"

3. Neither because those who have these fantasies are not likely to carry them out in real life.

Now I am a survivor of a RL attack. This is pretty well known. I also find the fantasy exciting, but do NOT want to see this happen to anyone in real life.

I believe that the first statement is true.

This is the argument that I would take to politicians, newspaper people and others who would shut this down.

How do the rest of you feel?

Baci

[Bluestone]

Hi Dalila,

Great thread. I would have to respectfully disagree with your selection, however, and choose #3, despite the fact that it would be nice to convince the politicians and media to support, and not outlaw, our genre

My personal experience and the experience of those who post here seems to support the fact that real violence has nothing whatsoever to do with our fetish. I know how ludicrous that sounds, but I still think it's true. Personally, what first attracted me to this taboo subject was the fact that I agreed with the taboo, i.e. girls should not be punched or stabbed or hurt in any way... they are beautiful objects of desire, and should be placed on pedestals. You can tell that I'm very old school, but that was my upbringing. Little girls are sugar and spice and everything nice.

So, when I first saw a beautiful woman on the screen being killed, I was attracted to this, because it was not supposed to happen. As a young impressionable boy, I wondered how anyone could destroy a beautiful female. When Marilyn Monroe died, I couldn't even imagine this beautiful woman no longer vibrant and alive, but soon to decay in a dark crypt.

I firmly believe that, in addition to all of the phallic overtones, i.e. the forbidden fruits, and the domination and control over the unattainable, my fetish, at least in part, developed from coming to grips with the unthinkable... a beautiful woman being slain.

I'd never, ever want to see real harm befall Suzi or Petra or any other sexy woman. I don't have a secret desire to act out a stabbing in real life, and so I have no need of being dissuaded from acting out my fantasies in RL. Seeing female murders on the screen neither causes me to want to do it in RL, nor holds me back from some RL desire to commit murder. It is only the fantasy that attracts me. The reality repells me. Real death is ugly, but there's nothing ugly about a beautiful woman like Dalila pretending to die slowly, erotically, as if performing one of her beautiful operatic death scenes.

The friends that I've met here all seem to be repelled by real death, and absolutely love women and DO NOT wish for anything negative to happen to them. Dalila, love, I'm not really up on what happened to you. Was your attacker someone with the fetish, or not?

Well, that's my two cents worth.

Blue

[Dalila di Capri]

My attacker was a thug...after my diamond necklace, which is why I almost always wear costume jewelry. I am positive that this was nto a fetish of his.

I have been told however by some of my fans that my films offer a catharsis.

One thng I am sure of...particularly from some of my fans and people I have met in this genre...(Dennis comes to mind as one) I am made to feel that if I were badly treated by someone those who appreciate my work the most would be the most likely to come to my defense, either physically or at very least with some sort of support.


So I think it must be either #1 or #3 with #2 being only in the imaginations of people who want to villify you and make me look like a weak woman who panders to promoting violence against women.

I brought this up because most of your reactions to my covnetion suggestion seemed to be based upon what the outside world would say.

perhaps we need to come up with a better way of demonstrating that the last thing on our minds is actually hurting anyone.

baci

[Nightposter]

Yea! what Blue said!

But seriously, I have had playmates whom with I have acted out scenes of peril and murder, and as a public safety responder, have witnessed the aftermath of real murder. There is NO comparison. My playmates die fantasy deaths, they are as attractive in their demise as they are before the scene starts. Afterward, they get up, we hug ( and often more), then we plan our next scene. In real life, there is no second chance, no safe words that stop the action, no second takes, and no one gets up afterward to hug and more.

My answer is 3 these are fantasies, and I would never want any of my playmates to get hurt. and yes, I would risk my life to save yours in a heart beat!

[Dalila di Capri]

Thanks Nightposter....

I am thinking of taking some time to do soemthing like a public service message for the community...something like a declaration on behalf of the producers and actresses...

Off the top of my head something like.

"Hi I am Dalila di Capri...an actress who specializes in erotic and beautiful death scenes.
I have been stabbed. shot strangled, all usually in very erotic context. I am here to say that the fans I do this for have nothing but the highest regard for women, and in reality treasure their actresses for providing them with an unusual fantasy.

This community opposes violence toward women in real life. I am proud to be part of a genre that understands the difference between film violence and real violence..."

...or something to that effect...
This could be a free link, posted everywhere and really give the naysayers somethign to think about.

Do any of you feel like such a promotional film would do anything to change how we are thought of in society?

Baci

[JohnM]

I will have to choose all three...or, maybe none of the above.

As humans, we want to predict what is going to happen. Our lives essentially are controlled by the predictability of events and reactions. For a lot of these things, the predictions, which come from a series of observations over time hold true. You show a dog a bone, the dog will salivate. You show a stripper a pole, she will wear see through shoes with dollar bills in them.

But....not always.

Now murder, that is a whole different salivating stripper pole altogether.

I could not imagine killing anyone--ever. Even in self defense, I would not know if I would be able to pull the trigger....would I close my eyes and just squeeze, would I be be conscious of what I was about to do. It is unfathomable to me. So, watching this stuff simply has no tie in. It is a release of sorts, but nothing connected to anything harmful.

But, I suspect those who murder--like a serial killer, are doing it because they want to. Really want to. There is some lost morality there, something broken in them. These fake movies, there not going to satisfy them. This is jack off material for pansies in there view. They want the real thing....they are looking for something that no fake imagery will even come close to.

But.....when I see an advertisement on TV for something good to eat...and maybe I am a little hungry, I might be tempted to go ahead and eat. The TV ad did not make me do it--I chose to eat on my own, but I was a little influenced. Had that ad not run, perhaps I wouldn't have gotten something to eat just then....but certainly later. I have to eat sometime.

See what I mean.

In fact, the more I think about it, the more I know this material is not going to stop someone who already is intent on killing. They are going to kill...someday. Maybe there will be a delay of events, however.

It's tough, you see, I cannot think like a killer. I can only make analogies to things I know.....a food advert and me being hungry. Would it be similar for a killer---some who kills as easily as going to the fringe and getting left over lasagna?

Maybe the speculation is pointless and maybe we should not bother. Maybe the worst is true or maybe, just maybe, violent acts have been committed throughout time, predating entertainment of many sorts. Maybe, just maybe, it is the person, responsible for his act and no one to blame, not the fetish movie, or a blood sugar rush after eating a Twinkie....just him or her and there messed up brain.

JohnM

[JohnM]

This could be a free link, posted everywhere and really give the naysayers somethign to think about.

Do any of you feel like such a promotional film would do anything to change how we are thought of in society?

Baci

My son like bees. Bees don't like him. When he chases them around, inevitably, they take notice of him and he gets stung.

Now, I could tell him bees like honey, let him have some to try to show the bees he is an OK little guy. But, they are still going to sting him. Then, they will take the honey anyhow.

Why?

Because it is their nature.

JohnM

[Dalila di Capri]

Very thoughtful posts John M,

My argument always goes back to histroy.

Cruel sadistic rulers who enjoyed putting people to death are well documented:

Caligula, Nero, Vlad the Impaler, Those nice fellows who ran the Spanish inquisition...

Now I know for a fact that Vlad was an old customer of mine but he got cheap with me and started file sharing with other sadistic dictators so I asked Dennis to ban him from further purchases...

Seriously the root of this kind of behavior goes back to the mind of the individual.

John M points out that the real muderer is missing something: A morality button that says
"This is wrong"
Nearly every fan that I have spoken to says
"Dalila I would never harm anyone in real life, but in fantasies I want to take a knife and...."

There are sites out there that depict real gore...Ogrish.com is the one I know about.

I find this site to be very creepy because it seems as though many of the posters get excited by looking at video or still shots of real female victims and will put little masturbation emoticons in their posts.

These same posters usually hate our kind of material because they never want to see "fake" death pictures. My husband is very political and found the site during the Iraq war (He is pro troops) He als found a picture of me there and said..."hey take this down. I know the actress who did this film."

So I know that our community is in fact the opposite of gore hounds who want to see car wrecks, real murder victims, rotten corpses and so forth.

We like beautiful fantasy death with known actresses who perform the scenes on a regular basis.

So I think what I would say to our fan base is...don't torture yourself. This is an erotic taboo that we are acting out. No one is being hurt.

I would say this to those who judge us. Don't confuse us with people who are sexually stimulated by looking at real death scene material. Our stuff is just play acting.

I look forward to more of your comments.

Baci

[Peter]

I am absolutely convinced that there are people alive today because of the work we do, who would be dead if we had not done it. And not a small number.

I was delighted a little while back to see a documentary about the FBI profiler unit, the folks most involved with catching serial killers. One of them elucidated at length about the mentality of serial killers. He said that a lot of people have fantasies in their heads that if acted out would result in someone's death, and most people are content to leave it at that, alone in their heads. A fraction of those with such fantasies need more and for them, he said, there is material on the internet which can satisfy them. However there is a tiny fraction of people with such fantasies who cannot be satisfied with what they find on the internet and it is those people who go out and kill. He said this non-judgmentally and matter of factly.

Implicitly this also means that if that material was 'not' available on the internet, there would be more serial killing. And what are the actual statistics? Serial killings are down by almost half of what they were back in 1996 when Necrobabes was getting started.

Now some would contend that those numbers don't mean anything. Nonsense. There are enough such killings annually that the tracking numbers are statistically very meaningful and the graph of those statistics is a steady line going downwards. It would be reasonable to consider if perhaps something else was responsible for that drop, but all the standard things that might cause a reduction in crime have not changed (poverty, wealth disparity, education, etc.), indeed some of their influences are actually changing so as to increase crime.

There is no other obvious cause for the reduction, for serial killings to drop by nearly half. Indeed if the thesis of those who would censor us was true, that our material inflames the lust of the viewer, normalizes the idea of violence and thereby increases the likelihood that a viewer would commit violence, then whatever countervailing influence that might exist to counteract that, would have to be all the more powerful. And there is absolutely no evidence of any other factor in society that could even hint at an explanation of the statistical drop in killings.

It is all the rage among the censorious to rail against the increase in violence in the media (which would include us) and the prevalence of violent computer games. They assert that these things 'cause' violence, and exacerbate the problem of violence in society. And when did this increase in media violence start? When did computer gaming really take off? 1995-1996, precisely the point at which the violent crime statistics took a nose dive downwards, not upwards as it 'should' have, if the censors were right.

The evidence is very clear to anyone capable of rational analysis, devoid of their own prejudice. Something changed in 1995 - 1996 to cause violent crime to drop by almost half, and the drop off was sharp. Whatever it was had to be big, really big, to cause such a change, big enough that it should be obvious. Well, the only thing that changed was the very thing the censors want to censor, the internet, computer games, and hard edge television. The internet, computer games and hard edge television 'did' change things, they changed things massively, in the exact opposite way that the censors say they did.

Media violence is in fact a catharsis for violence. It is a way to vent urges in a harmless manner. In much the same way that young boys and men are encouraged to play sports, to channel their instincts in a harmless direction, so too does our material channel the the desires of those with our fetishes, into a harmless direction. Why go through all the trouble and take the huge risk of actually harming a real person, when you can simply download some stroke material from the internet that can placate you?

It is not for nothing that I named my company Catharsis back in 1996.

[JohnM]

Actually, Penn & Teller: Bullshit, did an episode debunking video games as a cause of violence and cited some of the same information you posted, Peter.

Here is an excerpt.

http://www.wired.com/underwire/2009/07/ ... -violence/

The full episode is actually quite good. There is a portion that really gets to me where they have a 9yo boy who is hooked on first person shooters go out to a real gun range and file an assault rifle. The reaction afterwords--well, you just have to watch the entire episode to get the full impact.

JohnM

[Dalila di Capri]

I am really glad to see that this conversation is taking such a construtive direction.

Peter's opinion is close to mine...our material offers catharsis and prevents real violence against women.

John M and Blue say that the material does not prompt violence againt women, but does nothing to stop it.

I am interested in how a 9 year old would react to shooting a real gun.

I will watch that.

I have a .25 that I have only fired a few times at a local range. It was fun, but of course not being an expert I flinched a few times and was not used to the noise around me.

To me the most important thing is that we take a very strong stand against RL violence, especially involving women. I would like to see this genre become something more than a dirty little secret on someone's hard drive. It is a legitimate type of horror fantasy and in my opinion should be treated as such. Perhaps if we visit the subject more regularly we will eventually get a better reputation in the outside world.

Peter's statistics bode well, but of course when some ass such as the fellow who just burst into the women's gym and shot a bunch of girls who were working out the question will be:

What was on HIS hard drive?

Now if it's Dalila di Capri films I have a problem.

But what if it's a bunch of religious stuff...or episodes of "Jackass"...or "South Park"?

Will these sources be blamed for this lone maniac's actions???

I would be interested to find out.

Baci

[kevin67]

I would pick number 3.. My lady friend and I have had a very similar argument concerning whether or not violent movies and games causes people to be desensitized to violence, and thus commit a violent act. She believes that these videos and games does cause impressionable people to go out and commit a violent act. I totally disagree with her. Long before these movies and games came out violent crimes and torture was occurring. Serial killing and violence in general did not just start up when motion pictures or games were invented. If somebody already has the mindset to kill, whether they see violence portrayed or not , they will act upon their impulses. Sometimes they will blame it on a violent movie that they have seen, but in reality, thousands of people saw the same movie and didn't kill anyone. There are other factors working in that persons mind that has nothing to do with their seeing a violent movie or playing a violent game.

The outside world has a common misconception that if you eliminate the cause, then you have no problems. However history teaches us a different story .Do people really believe that eliminating all the exposure to violent material will really stop the killing. I don 't think so. Cain slew Abel ,committing the first murder, but there is no mention in the Bible of violent literature or a violent TV show. Jack the Ripper also didn't have a violent movie or game to blame his crimes on. True violence may very well be in the nature of certain individuals.

The first choice would be great, but I don't like to think that If I wasn't a member of this board, that I would be out killing women. I would like to think that these video's satisify my fantasies, not calm a real urge to kill.

Thank you Dalila for this great discussion topic, it actually made me think. Now, if you will excuse me, I think I will take an aspirin, you know that thinking taxes my brain.

[Dalila di Capri]

I have noticed that on both this forum and DS people are discussing the shooting at the Latin Fitness Dance class.

A few things to point out:

1.This guy does not have any of our material on his hard drive. He was a depressed and lonely figure, obviously metally ill, who heard "voices from God" telling him that he was already forgiven for the crimes he was about to commit.

2. He targeted average women who were simply trying to workout. The women who were killed were all very average looking and all older than I am. Usually in those classes the sexiest woman there is the instructor. I know because I have taught the belly dance version of those same types of classes. Hot young dancers usually train in pro dance studios. That's the kind of place I go when I want to train with someone better than myself.

3. The instuctor was one of the women shot...but survied so she obvioulsy was nto the primary target.

Rigth now it seems that the news is concentrating on the "assault weapons ban lapse" religion and other things that have nothign to do with our material...yet there is a poster at DS trying to say that someone from our community is also likely to do this.
(What an ASS)

I urge you whenever possible to post your attitudes about fantasy versus reality every time some sort of event like this happens. The more we go on record as being opposed to this kind of violence the better chance we have of being left alone to enjoy our harmless fantasy material in peace.

Thoughts???

[Den-CnB]

I have noticed that on both this forum and DS people are discussing the shooting at the Latin Fitness Dance class.

I urge you whenever possible to post your attitudes about fantasy versus reality every time some sort of event like this happens. The more we go on record as being opposed to this kind of violence the better chance we have of being left alone to enjoy our harmless fantasy material in peace.

Thoughts???

Our interests are Fantasy only and RL *murders should not be posted. It could appear to outsiders we are confused between fantasy and reality. If it is posted we do it at this forum's peril.

* If someone of importance dies for whatever reason, I believe this is okay to post as a matter of information to the group: Example, the president, a member, etc.

Dennis

[Dalila di Capri]

Wise advice on the whole...

But when someone else is posting about the event as thoguh we too would perhaps tend to do something like the fellow at the gym should we not object to this and thell the poster to be quiet about it??

Baci