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knifeinhand wrote:
I'm the one who showed all the rest how to do them. I can tell that the few who do some effects learned by watching my work. Many have found out how much work it actually is and quit doing it and do mostly some form of strangle video. Seems to be a lot more money in that any way and I might have to then show people how to do those right.


Well, I learned shooting effects from the infamous Dr. Don! LOL! Also, UKSG helped me to perfect my strangle techniques before they left the public marketplace. I did watch and enjoy your stuff in the early years. Problem with this market is that both customers and producers can get saturated with the basics and need something new to inspire them. I got too busy to view the work of other producers, but there was always something that kept me going and helped to make my work fresh. Petra herself was my muse for many years, and her videos, I.M.H.O., will always turn my crank, and I filmed more than 200 with her. Now, I'm doing fresh work in both the Superheroine and Spy genres with full cast and crew. This helped me to develop a whole different, additional following, and allowed me to incorporate new content that seldom appeared in my crime videos, such as chloroforming, backbreakers, and loads of special effects! So, in short, none of us can simply do what we did 10-20 years ago and expect the same results. What was fresh then is old hat now.

Just sayin'.

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Fri Oct 12, 2018 9:09 am
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In my opinion, all of the shooting effects I've seen are really weak. I'm not even that happy with my own effects on that. But I wasn't talking shooting effects. I'm talking the stabbing and arrow work for the most part.

I don't do what I did 10 or 20 years ago. Some others are trying to do what I did 10 or 20 years ago though. Still can't even approach it. You had to hire a massive crew and effects people to even try to equal the work I've been doing by myself for years. Some of it looks okay but still needs work. Maybe throw more money on it. Point is, it isn't profitable. What I'm doing is closer to being profitable than what you are doing. So why should I then start throwing good money after bad? So I can spend thousands on videos that don't come close to selling enough to cover it? Unlike you, I don't have tons of other money to just throw away. But thanks for the great advice.

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Fri Oct 12, 2018 11:11 am
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knifeinhand wrote:
I'm the one who showed all the rest how to do them. I can tell that the few who do some effects learned by watching my work.


Narscism anyone? No worries. We are all proud of the work we do on our own, since we really are on our own, figuring things out. I mean, there is no "Shoot of Efx for Necro Fetish Producers" anywhere. And having started doing effects shots way back in high school---covering a friend in fake blood after drilling them during a chase sequence for a music video I made to Beatles Help.....he is still pissed at me, I can say, I have always been into the movie making process over the movies themselves.

Well, lets see. For shooting effects, Rodzilla was my first muse. Great guy, lives here in Oregon. We came up with some non-digital effects back in 1998-99, having to do with fishing line, special clothing and a reveal process. Of course sycing up sound back then was a bitch.

Then, sometime in 2000-2001, a guy from CA, that was helping us at the time came to a shoot and we did some test footage for digital, using a brand new roto tool back then called Commotion. It was very-very early....right before I moved to Apple.....still fucking with the very early digital editing programs, which sucked. But, it was at that point shortly after Ruemorgue (owned by Hank and I), was doing roto bullet effects. And I believe, DrDon had achieved similar effect a year prior, using some other digital technique...probably hand painting each frame.

But right near the end of 2001, got Mac, and after a disaster with early Premier, went to FCP (Final Cut Pro). It was then, I was able to take total control having grown up a child of the 80's and following the great directors and my love of effects, was able to figure everything out and get the shots I wanted with the effects I wanted. Achieving everything from fantastical bullet riddled effects, gorey guttings, awesome arrows, spears, decapitatons, etc., etc. And since I did not watch other producers work, mostly, I just tried to emulate what I saw from my Hollywood peers with no money. :-)

Over the years I have refined my technique. Technology changed. I went back to Premiere---now much better, after FCP took a dump when it moved to version 10. Commotion stopped worked as it was discontinued in 2004 and I had been giving it CPR for years. Eventually, I created a macro for rotoing out markers that worked as well for bullet wounds and mapped cloning to the process to create a nice stable system for doing my bullet effects. I started creating my own gore to offset the canned effects I already had.

So, yeah, I mostly just figured it out. I would say, all the Hunt series movies I did as Ruemorgue helped the most as I was always having to solve effect problems. Though, when I did Amazons vs. Mutants, with some of the most complex compositing ever, I think that also helps. I did a Blade Runner (and Terminater a few times) homage once, that had some great future city and spaceship effects. It is hard to remember all the sfx shots I have done ever the years.

JohnM

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Fri Oct 12, 2018 11:46 am
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I seem to remember an email I got from you years ago that you had figured out how I did the knife into the girls body effect and that you were releasing that video. Doubt I still have that email since it was a very old no longer used email account.

For the longest time, only one producer(KHP) did knife and arrow work where you watched the blade and arrows actually go in. No one else even trying. It was always camera cuts in and out. After I did it for a few years, then others tried but found I think that it was too much work for too little money. Lot more money in fucking and strangling girls. And probably a lot more fun to shoot. I might have to look into it.

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Fri Oct 12, 2018 12:29 pm
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knifeinhand wrote:
I seem to remember an email I got from you years ago that you had figured out how I did the knife into the girls body effect and that you were releasing that video. Doubt I still have that email since it was a very old no longer used email account.

For the longest time, only one producer(KHP) did knife and arrow work where you watched the blade and arrows actually go in. No one else even trying. It was always camera cuts in and out. After I did it for a few years, then others tried but found I think that it was too much work for too little money. Lot more money in fucking and strangling girls. And probably a lot more fun to shoot. I might have to look into it.


No you are correct. I surmised the technique from watching your work, though I have no idea if I did it the same way. At the time it was a pain in the ass, but I later created a knife track so I could get a strait plunge, and then used a 3D model of a blade I created in Blender, so I could use After Effects to compensate for angle and rotation. In my earliest attempts before that, I just used an imaged clips of the knife and composited out---with was retarded--I know.

I still prefer the hollywood life effect method either by camera forced perspective or by using a nice prop--but those are a pain to fabricate and I no longer have access to someone who can weld, and don't have the space to do it myself. I would probably go up in flames. :-)

I am in talks with a UK effects house on a build currently.

Now, that I am not shooting 60-70 movies a month and can focus again on just death fetish, I can put (as Deadpool would day), "maximum effort" in to effects processes, whether in camera or digital.

One more note--I have done nearly as many shootings as strangling....shootings are something I enjoy doing. However, for the last 5-6 years, I have not been able to edit my own shooting work with few exceptions. This has been frustrating for me, and I am happy now, I can get back to all aspects of the process. In a recent movie I just released, I experimented with some new elements for the shooting sequences that I hope viewers will enjoy.

Thanks for reminding me.
JohnM

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Fri Oct 12, 2018 1:40 pm
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That's what it is all about I think. Find a place that makes you happy and hopefully that also means being able to make something from it. That is where I'm at. Really trying to find my audience and hone in on that. I don't think throwing tons of money at it is the way to do that. I think even after doing this for about 15 years, I still bring in new ideas and I always try to up the game. Those who do buy my videos know this. And there will be even more of that on this next set of videos with Nicole. One being a new superheroine video that I'm really excited about doing!

Best of luck to you JohnM on future work!

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Fri Oct 12, 2018 3:48 pm
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I think you will see that this is on par with the superheroine genre. I hired 20 guys and spent $5000 but it's a pretty good 34 second clip.(Lies, all lies!) Shooting the super hero Sexy Girl soon when she comes in the face the evil Lester Luxurious and this time he seems to have her right where he wants her. But to his surprise, Sexy Girl has a dark secret she shares with him. Why would she share it with her arch enemy? You'll have to just wait and see!

https://www.dropbox.com/s/p3oncnhgkmco3 ... b.mp4?dl=0

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Sat Oct 13, 2018 10:59 am
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Even though this thread is more or less a two way conversation it was a fun read :yes:

What struck me most are various budgets some as high as $ 9000...
I have no doubt that there is a fan base for these, but how do you collect money with all the CC and processors frown upon any sort of violence mixed with sex or nudity...??

So, is the 9,000 budget a wishful thinking ( do not want to call anyone a liar ;-) ) or is all all bout "cash in the mail". I am baffled..

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Wed Oct 17, 2018 6:36 am
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If you want to pay me $9000 to do a custom, I'm your man! I'll hire the crew and rigs and gear to do what ever you want. :)

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Wed Oct 17, 2018 3:03 pm
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bakerboy wrote:
Even though this thread is more or less a two way conversation it was a fun read :yes:

What struck me most are various budgets some as high as $ 9000...
I have no doubt that there is a fan base for these, but how do you collect money with all the CC and processors frown upon any sort of violence mixed with sex or nudity...??

So, is the 9,000 budget a wishful thinking ( do not want to call anyone a liar ;-) ) or is all all bout "cash in the mail". I am baffled..



Back in 2004, my old company, Ruemorgue, did a movie called Westward Hos. At the time, we were doing a pledge system, as that was how we got our Hunt-series funded and costs were covered ok. Well, this turned out to be more expensive.

After it was all said and done, the total cost was over $45,000.

We took about $15,000 in pledges.

So, massive debt covered the 30K loss. Of course, we were hoping that sales would cover that.

In 14 years since it's release, i think it has made 5K.

This was a case where, we wanted to do something good, and took the steps and paid the price to do it right, and that is what the real costs were.

Now, when I charge someone 10K for a custom, that is the real cost. There is no profit. When somone asks for something, I add up how muth the talent costs, which is most of the prices, location costs, costuming, and time. At the end of if, I was still short about $1600 on that one. And, sales covered about half of that, so all in all, it was a loss. But some costs it is hard to be accurate on and I error on the side of lower for the customer. Like when I figure $160 for airfare, but it ends up being $500 becuase of---well airfare bullshit. Or the time/labor and delay costs because the talent cannot accept food from one of the 6 locations that my PA can walk to, but instead requires Uber, Travel, Etc. It all adds up on larger productions.

On the other hand, I might have a local model in a location, already booked that is low on customs or overexposed already, and I can take simple $300 projects with no isssue.

So, there is a range and with anything you get what you pay for. But with everything I do, I always put the most i can into it, which is great when much of what makes the movie turn out well, aside from the model, is my obsession to making it turn out well, and all the experience I bring over the last 21 years.

JohnM

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Wed Oct 17, 2018 5:20 pm
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I r ememmber Westward Hos. It actuall y looke d like you@d ds pent a lot of $ on it


Wed Oct 17, 2018 5:28 pm
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There is no way in hell I would pay that sort of money on a shoot. I've had some too that were bigger more expensive(not $10,000 though) like the Bad Girls and Sniper videos. But a simple sacrifice on a table in a room would make tons more then those did.

Lately I've found it very hard to predict what is going to do good or not. Thought for sure the Super Heroine one would do good but still not one sale. lol Go figure. Guess no one wants to see Sexy Girl get killed. Sorry, didn't know killing an unknown superhero was treading on sacred ground.

I feel like a lot of other producers call special effects things that are not really special effects. Shooting all the stabbing action out of camera is not an effect and is no work at all. I could do 100 of those for every 1 video I do where I show the knife go in(several times). Same thing with arrows. Most only cut the camera with a sound effect(some times not even that).

For some of these videos, I'm not really sure where all the money is going to if there is no profit. Would love to see a break down of all the expenses on those.

Some of the ones I've done recently for about $3000 or $4000 first of all was for more than one video. I shot from 5 to 10 for that price. I paid high priced traveling models, paid for flights, paid for help, Uber's, food, hotels, outfits and $700 a day for me. Still didn't add up to $10,000 and wasn't one video and I made something from it. I'm totally confused where the money is going there honestly. Maybe the models are leaving the water running. I know how that can really run up a water bill. Might want to install those automatic shut off valves.

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Wed Oct 17, 2018 7:09 pm
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knifeinhand wrote:
If you want to pay me $9000 to do a custom, I'm your man! I'll hire the crew and rigs and gear to do what ever you want. :)


NO thanks I make my own, I just wanted to determine if I am being a fool and investing about 20 K in each production, having to "skirt around" the various FUPs to make it profitable.

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Sat Oct 20, 2018 7:22 am
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JohnM wrote:
bakerboy wrote:
Even though this thread is more or less a two way conversation it was a fun read :yes:

What struck me most are various budgets some as high as $ 9000...
I have no doubt that there is a fan base for these, but how do you collect money with all the CC and processors frown upon any sort of violence mixed with sex or nudity...??

So, is the 9,000 budget a wishful thinking ( do not want to call anyone a liar ;-) ) or is all all bout "cash in the mail". I am baffled..



Back in 2004, my old company, Ruemorgue, did a movie called Westward Hos. At the time, we were doing a pledge system, as that was how we got our Hunt-series funded and costs were covered ok. Well, this turned out to be more expensive.

After it was all said and done, the total cost was over $45,000.

We took about $15,000 in pledges.

So, massive debt covered the 30K loss. Of course, we were hoping that sales would cover that.

In 14 years since it's release, i think it has made 5K.

This was a case where, we wanted to do something good, and took the steps and paid the price to do it right, and that is what the real costs were.

Now, when I charge someone 10K for a custom, that is the real cost. There is no profit. When somone asks for something, I add up how muth the talent costs, which is most of the prices, location costs, costuming, and time. At the end of if, I was still short about $1600 on that one. And, sales covered about half of that, so all in all, it was a loss. But some costs it is hard to be accurate on and I error on the side of lower for the customer. Like when I figure $160 for airfare, but it ends up being $500 becuase of---well airfare bullshit. Or the time/labor and delay costs because the talent cannot accept food from one of the 6 locations that my PA can walk to, but instead requires Uber, Travel, Etc. It all adds up on larger productions.

On the other hand, I might have a local model in a location, already booked that is low on customs or overexposed already, and I can take simple $300 projects with no isssue.

So, there is a range and with anything you get what you pay for. But with everything I do, I always put the most i can into it, which is great when much of what makes the movie turn out well, aside from the model, is my obsession to making it turn out well, and all the experience I bring over the last 21 years.

JohnM


I know the feeling. Back in the early 2000's our budgets per movie were well in excess of 100 K ( there was international home video market paying decent money). Now with all the piracy, and DVDs basically dead, we keep the budgets to a max. of 20 K. Yet the " market" wants us to maintain the production quality from 15 to 20 years ago... Go figure.... :roll:

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Sat Oct 20, 2018 7:27 am
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You and Olaf (of Nuclear Winter / Titania / Modern Amazons, etc) are the only two to do good arrow work. You're shooting and stabbing work isn't bad, either, that's a more crowded field.

As to superheroines -- I care more about what the victim is NOT wearing than what she is! So costiume doesn't interest me, as long as it doesn't hide the tits. Several of my favoites of yours are of Kamryn wearing ordinary clothes -- she dies so well, whether arrowed, shot or stabbed.

I've added a few pics from the "Nicole in Pink" video you were talking about. Very HOT!


Attachments:
Nicole 01.JPG
Nicole 01.JPG [ 61.9 KiB | Viewed 453 times ]
Snap 003.png
Snap 003.png [ 182.55 KiB | Viewed 453 times ]
Sat Oct 20, 2018 10:15 am
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